The situation with a leader of one of the political parties vying for ministerial portfolios confessing to cheating continues to cause issues.

Green co-leader Metiria Turei has spoken to a fraud investigator from the Ministry of Social Development, and said she will meet with them to discuss her case next week.

The conversation came after she sent a letter to MSD on Monday, that said she would “co-operate fully with an investigation into the period of time I received a benefit during the 1990s”.

“During our phone call, I made myself available to be interviewed about my case,” Ms Turei said.

“We are in the process of confirming the details of that meeting, but it will take place next week.

“Once they determine what I owe, then I will know and I will pay it,” she said.

Ms Turei recently admitted she lied to WINZ in the early 1990s, when she was a single mother studying for a law degree. She didn’t tell WINZ she had flatmates out of fear her benefit would be cut

So she is leading a campaign during question time. The first extract from Hansard is from yesterday.

METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister for Social Development: Does she believe that the Ministry of Social Development has a responsibility to treat unemployed people, sole parents, and people with disabilities with respect and dignity, and ensure every person on a benefit has all the support they are entitled to?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development): I believe that the ministry should treat everyone with respect and dignity, regardless of whether they are on a benefit or not.

Metiria Turei: Does she think that her ministry lives up to this standard, given the hundreds of examples made public this week describing denigrating and obstructive responses by Work and Income deliberately denying people their entitlements?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I have travelled all over New Zealand and have been into Work and Income offices and talked with staff. I have never met anyone yet who is not absolutely passionate about helping people get back on their feet, get into work, and live successful lives.

Metiria Turei: Given that a recent study into grandparents seeking financial support has found that “the service standards published by Work and Income are continually breached, not displayed in offices and are not subject to a complaints procedure, …” will she commit to changing the punitive culture in Work and Income so that it focuses on giving people the help when they need it?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: The benefit that the member is referring to is the unsupported orphans benefit. I think that is the name of it. There are procedures that do take a long time to process—determining whether or not a child is in the full care of a grandparent. I have met with Grandparents Raising Grandchildren on a number of occasions. What I can say to the member is that this issue in particular is being addressed through the Ministry for Vulnerable Children, Oranga Tamariki, which focuses on the needs of the child and, therefore, will enable much better support, I believe, to be wrapped around any people who are taking care of those children and in particular, grandparents.

Sarah Dowie: What recent actions has the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) taken to ensure people do receive the support they are entitled to?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: We have been working our way through a number of issues to ensure that the practice aligns with the legislation and that people do receive their full entitlements. For example, one issue that was identified was a coding error that meant some clients were being paid the accommodation supplement at the wrong rate. When this was discovered, MSD took the appropriate action to reimburse 22,000 current clients at around $14 million and undertook to identify previous clients who may have been underpaid. MSD is absolutely committed to ensuring that people get the support that they are entitled to.

Metiria Turei: When Work and Income tells 85 percent of grandparents who are caring for their grandchildren that they are not entitled to benefits that they should in fact be receiving, will she instruct Work and Income to review every case to ensure every single person on a benefit is receiving their full entitlement?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I am not aware of where that figure comes from. If it comes from a survey that was done recently, then I would question the assertion that that relates to all grandparents. As I have said, there is a process by which Work and Income has to be satisfied that the grandparent now has the full care of and responsibility for the child, and that does cause, from time to time, some lengthy delays. As I say, this has been raised with me on a number of occasions by the organisation representing those grandparents, and we are addressing it as best as we are able to.

Metiria Turei: When so many stories of people being driven into poverty and despair by the broken welfare system have emerged in this last week, will she instruct the MSD to hold an amnesty for every current beneficiary—

Hon Gerry Brownlee: Oh! Now we get to it.

Metiria Turei: —for every current beneficiary, so not me, Minister—so that they can talk to Work and Income about—

Mr SPEAKER: Order! Would the member complete her question. It is a very long question.

Metiria Turei:—so that they can talk to Work and Income about their full entitlement without risking investigation or financial punishment?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: First of all, I reject the assumption that the social welfare system that this country so proudly has is broken. In fact, on the contrary, I would say the results—that people are working very hard throughout New Zealand—have shown a record number of people coming off reliance on a benefit and into work. Sixty thousand children in New Zealand now no longer live in houses dependant on a benefit, and I think that is a huge success for this country and a huge success for the people who are now living totally independent lives, able to support themselves and their families.

Metiria Turei: Why will the Minister not hold an amnesty for current beneficiaries when she cannot guarantee that every parent on a benefit has enough money to feed their kids and pay their power bills this winter without having to ask for extra assistance?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I think the member forgets that this Government was the first Government in over 40 years to raise the amount of money paid to beneficiaries—the first Government in 40 years. There is no doubt that it is difficult to manage on a benefit, but that is why the staff at Work and Income work so hard with families to help them into sustainable employment, because the best way out of poverty is to be self-reliant, to be independent, and to be able to be working in New Zealand supporting their own families.

Metiria Turei: How many beneficiaries are currently homeless?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I suggest the member puts that down in a written question.

Metiria Turei: Given the Minister does not know how many current beneficiaries are homeless, how can she agree with the use of financial sanctions to threaten the poorest people in New Zealand with worsened poverty?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: Sanctions are only ever applied after several warnings, and are only applied when people do not comply with their obligations. Some of those obligations are very simple—turning up for an appointment. If there is a good reason, the sanction is not applied. It is very easy for people to re-comply, but there has to be some accountability when you are abusing spending taxpayers’ money.

Metiria Turei: Why does the Minister believe that it is OK for the Government to use poverty as a weapon against solo mums and their children, disabled people, and homeless people who have already lost everything?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I completely refute the assertions of that member.

Metiria Turei: How many people on a benefit have committed suicide in the last 5 years?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I do not believe that the MSD has ever collected those sorts of statistics.

In the meantime, the two main parties agree on one thing: you should not advocate cheating the social welfare service. English and Little are both fathers, family blokes, and their response is identical.

Both Green Party leaders say they wouldn’t dob in benefit cheats but that’s wrong according to Prime Minister Bill English and Labour leader Andrew Little who are in agreement on the issue.

Greens’ co-leader Metiria Turei will meet with fraud investigators from the Ministry of Social Development next week after admitting lying to Work and Income to receive a larger benefit than she was entitled to as a young solo mum in the 1990s.

Since her confession last week Ms Turei says she’s been contacted by welfare recipients currently lying to WINZ but she won’t dob them in.

That’s a position shared by her co-leader James Shaw.

But despite opposing views on most issues, Mr English and Mr Little are united in the view that politicians can’t be seen to be condoning law breaking.

“Of course people make mistakes, they inadvertently break the law, they do it under pressure,” Mr English said on Wednesday.

“It’s the job of the police and then the justice system to take account of those circumstances because life’s a bit messy.”

He said Ms Turei was “disconnected” from normal assumptions that people should obey the law.

Mr Little said he would advise people coming to him to do the right thing and “front up” to WINZ.

“No politician should condone anybody breaking the rules or breaking the law but that’s what’s happened,” he said.

Neither Mr Little or Ms Turei have sought advice on whether her confession could lead to a conviction and potentially the end of her political career.

Mr Little wouldn’t say whether his election campaign partner’s confession would rule her out of a cabinet position in a Labour-Green government.

“We haven’t had any discussions. I’m not talking about portfolio allocations before the election,” he said.

Ms Turei keeps on digging. After implying WINZ is not caring to the minister (who did her duty: she defended her staff) she now asks about homelessness, something, as a matter of policy, is not recorded. The policy is to limit stigma and increase accessibility. That does not matter. Points have to be made. From the Hansard, today.

METIRIA TUREI (Co-Leader—Green) to the Minister for Social Development: How many people on benefits are currently homeless?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY (Minister for Social Development): I am advised that the Ministry of Social Development (MSD) does not record whether people are homeless, because you do not need an address to get a benefit. Of course, if someone was to present to Work and Income and tell it they were homeless, it would work with them to address their situation. As I said in the House yesterday, Work and Income staff are absolutely passionate about helping people get back on their feet and live successful lives.

Metiria Turei: How many of the 60,000 children who she says are no longer on benefits are homeless?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: We do not know. We do not keep track of where those children are living. [Interruption]

Mr SPEAKER: Order! [Interruption] Order! [Interruption] Order! I am now very quickly losing patience with the considerable interjection and conversation occurring across the aisle.

Metiria Turei: How many beneficiaries who have been subject to financial sanctions are now homeless?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: As I said in my answer to the primary question, I am advised that MSD does not record whether people are homeless, because they do not need an address to collect a benefit.

David Seymour: Would it be easier to collect those statistics if beneficiaries accurately reported where they were living and with whom?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: Work and Income does require some information, particularly from sole parents. It wants to know whom they are living with in order to establish whether or not they are sole parents.

Metiria Turei: Why does she not instruct MSD to keep records of beneficiaries and their children who are homeless when she knows that poverty and homelessness are two of the most pressing social issues facing New Zealand today?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: The member is assuming that because we do not have figures, Work and Income does not deal with people who have those issues. Of course, working with a case manager, if a client declares that they have nowhere to live and they are in dire financial circumstances, the staff at Work and Income will work with that person in order to help them get good accommodation and live a successful life. It does not necessarily report those numbers through to the Minister.

Metiria Turei: How many of the 60,000 children she says are no longer in benefit-dependent households are now in households that live above the poverty line?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I have said before, in answer both to questions in the House and to written questions, of course people leave the benefit and go into employment, they go overseas, some of them go on to be superannuitants, some of them go into jail, and some of them die. We do not necessarily follow them as they leave a benefit. However, I have conducted some research pre-welfare, for the 2 years prior to the welfare reforms, and I am awaiting a further update on that research for a cohort for the 2 years following the welfare reform to see exactly what happens to people who leave the benefit. It is clear, even at this early stage, that well over a third of the people who leave the benefit are still in work 2 years later.

Metiria Turei: So the Minister does accept the social policy evaluation and research unit’s (SuPERU) analysis that shows that 2 years after coming off a benefit only 33 percent of those beneficiaries are now in paid employment?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: Yes, that was right. The SuPERU research also showed, as I have said, that there is a whole variety of things that people go on to do in their lives. Some of them go into work. Some of them go into a different household situation where they do not have to work and are supported by someone else. As I say, some go overseas and some go into training. There is a whole variety of things that people do.

Metiria Turei: Is the Minister concerned that, after housing costs, the population poverty rate in 2016 is exactly the same as it was at the time of the global financial crisis and has not changed during the time of the National Government?

Hon ANNE TOLLEY: I would have to look at the figures that the member is referring to.

Metira is really annoying those who have been on the benefit and worked their way off it honestly. She is digging a hole and taking her party with it. Keep it up. The Greens are always electoral poison, and if we can get them below five percent of the vote they will disappear from Parliament. All of them.