Today we discussed a forbidden topic among the reformed in Church. And that is Mary.
46b My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant. Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50 His mercy is for those who fear him from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm; he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts.
52 He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
55 according to the promise he made to our ancestors, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”
In the reformation, the doctrines of Mary being without sin and ascending to heaven were rejected. Instead, Mary is fully human, a young Jewish woman, probably in her teenage years, betrothed (and preparing) for a marriage that was arranged with Joseph.
But she saw the child within her as the saviour of Israel and herself. She carried Jesus. We are to note that of all women she is accounted as the most blessed.
But in her lifetime… her husband died (which is what most commentators beleive — Jesus on the cross told John to look after her). Jesus Brothers went on in ministry — but even then, they were martyred. Do the math. If we say that Mary was ay 156 or 17 when she conceived by the spirit of God Jesus, and he lived 33 -34 years, at around my age (51) she was standing watching her first child be crucified.
Mary reminds us that the external signs of prosperity are not what God calls blessed. He chose a woman from the most marginal and dspised region — Galilee — and from a poor family. Mary may have been related to a priest’s wife, but she was going to marry a tradesman. She reminds us that Godly and blessed women still marry, still live within those walls — in fact it is significant that she DID marry — unlike most Female saints, who chose not to. Like most Jews, she was too sensible to see God as her boyfriend, but as the almighty.
If you compare her hymn (which is the text) and the prophets, you can see that see shes that the coming of the kingdom will be about justice. And this justice is something that all will plead for. And although Mary is fallen, she allowed the incarnation, and that makes her blessed.
As we are if we work for liberation, and freedom of the oppressed. Which takes me from Pergolesi to Gorecki, From the mother standing at the cross to a child awaiting death.
She’s great isn’t she? I’ve gotten into the habit of asking her to pray for me.
“And although Mary is fallen, she allowed the incarnation, and that makes her blessed.”
And that’s where we differ. I believe in the Immaculate Heart of Mary and I believe that she was born without Original Sin.
Yeah, it is when we start talking about immaculate hearts that the protestants either argue or disappear.
The reformation did no such thing as dispute the sinless nature of Mary even Luther readily acknowledged that. Your talking strictly fundies..
Well, I’m reforemd, and I’d argue that she had the taint. Besides being a fundamentalist, as defined by the pahphlets written by Gresham and other reformed scholars last century is a good thing.
Chris, you are a brave man indeed, going toe to toe with Catholics on Mary’s sin or lack thereof, LOL.
I am of the Protestant variety that will leave the room. Catch you later.
I’m not brave enough to comment on this at Traditional Christianity
Ahhh, Protestants…. Do they ever get anything right? Haha
I still stand by the fact that Mary was as clean as a whistle.
I’m not a white-knighter by any means and I am a bit of an irreverent asshole, but the only woman I’m willing to full-out white-knight for is Mary.
Mary does not need that. And Mary does not need the speculation of a bunch of monks (who I think were treating her as the heroine in some romance). She was a woman who was called into the most difficult of lives… and the most glorious. Her obedience in allowing the birth of Jesus is her glory.
A question and then a rant for you:
1. It is said that God can not stand the presence of sin thus why nothing unclean can enter heaven. If this is true why/how would God (Jesus being fully God and fully man) be conceived by the Holy Spirit and enter into a woman who was stained by the presence of sin. Logically it makes sense Mary was without Sin or else this is a big contradiction. Mary was spared from sin not through her own works but by the GRACE of God.
Rant:
As Adam was a fallen and still a slave to sin Jesus was the exact opposite.(a new perfect Adam) Similar Eve’s disobedience is perfectly contrasted to Mary’s perfect obedience. Thus just as her son is the new Adam she is the new perfect Eve.
MK:
I’m reformed, and I beleive that Mary is with her father and our father because of the blood of Jesus. And that is the only reason that we would ever be able to be in his prescence.
On the rant… Adam was responsible for his choice, not Eve. And from that choice came sin. Mary was obedient in this… but Mary also tried to get him shut up when he was preaching.
Mary is to be honoured: we are told to honour her because she obeyed… but to perfection? That requires that she is also of God. And she was fully human, not fully divine. The error in my branch of CHristendom is to not acknowledge her at all. And this means we don’t have a bulwark against feminism.
Because Mary ain’t no feminist. She was a wife, a mother, and the mother of our Lord. And as a wife, she submitted to her husband.
“I’m reformed, and I beleive that Mary is with her father and our father because of the blood of Jesus. And that is the only reason that we would ever be able to be in his prescence.”
This does not make someone reformed it is standard orthodox teaching for 2000 years and is part of the Catholic Christian heritage.
” Mary also tried to get him shut up when he was preaching.”
Please provide a quote
“Mary is to be honoured: we are told to honour her because she obeyed… but to perfection? That requires that she is also of God. ”
No it does not require perfection only grace provided by God. Is it any less probable then God taking the lowly form of a a man (which happened)?
“And she was fully human, not fully divine.”
Orthodox Christian teachings never claim Mary is divine only that she was spared from original sin by the Grace of God to serve as a perfect vessel (new arc of the covenant) for his son.