Yesterday I read Dalrock’s warning to men about how women in the Church are seeing any deviation from their definition of holiness as abuse or grounds for divorce. Overnight, CL asked about personality disorders. For the purposes of this discussion, a personality disorder will be defined as a person who habitually distorts the reality around them.
1 Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in their hearts; there is no fear of God before their eyes.
2 For they flatter themselves in their own eyes that their iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3 The words of their mouths are mischief and deceit; they have ceased to act wisely and do good.
4 They plot mischief while on their beds; they are set on a way that is not good; they do not reject evil.
I want to contrast what the Psalmist said with grerp’s comment over at dalrocks:
Correlation, not causation. In a divorce-friendly culture people who choose to hang in there probably have the kinds of characteristics necessary to create a happier marriage. In places where divorce is illegal, there are probably plenty of terribly unhappy couples who just keep on making each other miserable decade after decade. That does not, however, negate the fact that marriage is good for society, good for children, women, and men (in that order). It seems brutal to allow for no loopholes on divorce, but once you have loopholes, they quickly get expanded to tunnel size by anyone looking for an easier short term. And, long term, there is much, much more unhappiness for everyone.
I completely agree with you that the Church goes far too easy on divorce. The different denominations are probably (legitimately) afraid that if they take a hard line now, they will lose a significant proportion of their congregations. But that is a weak position for a leader to take, and probably why so many have abandoned the church despite its openness to modern mores.
One of the key things here is that PD people do not accept correction. At all. Their justifications distort reality. Like a hoarder who cannot let go of one item of their junk, they cannot change one of their habits. This leads to eventually either them walking out of their marriage (for no one can keep the standards they require to “earn” the right to be their spouse) or using projective identification, being abandoned.
Regardless of which, they PD will feel completely justified in his or her actions. One of the reasons men should avoid women who habitually rationalize is that this may mask PD. Because PD people can and do look righteous and perfect: they are acting while most of us struggle.
Want proof that women REFUSE to condemn the crimes of their fellow women?
Deleted multiple links to fathers rights site. Now play nice
But that’s just it… Christianity has become a rationalization! So many Christians treat their faith like a “get-out-of-jail-free” card – especially Christian women.
They have this attitude; that as long as you go to church and pray you don’t actually have to behave like a Christian.
For example, I’ve been virgin shamed by promiscuous churchgoing Christian girls. ’cause apparently it’s okay to sleep around if you go to church and ask God for forgiveness *facepalm*
Concerning projection, I find a lot of women’s projections are related to cognitive dissonance. [Or at least that's my theory]
The churchgoing Christians girls who virgin shame me feel ashamed of their own indiscretions. To cope with their insecurities, they try to tear me down.
Projection fascinates me.
I’m a Pollyanna-esque ingenue; I find the people who go out of their way to paint me as an awful person…tend to resemble the individual they paint me as. Like, they project their own flaws onto me.
I think that’s also the reason why so many women are repulsed by nice guys. I mean, a chaste kind man might make a promiscuous b**** realize her own misgivings; and well… we all know how feminists lack the humility to acknowledge their own poor behavior.
You know, that might possibly be the most frightening thing about Feminism. It created a generation of empathy-less women suffering from personality disorders. No wonder bullying in schools is so common!
“One of the key things here is that PD people do not accept correction. At all. Their justifications distort reality.”
This. The other person is always the one who is wrong or needs to change or is the weaker brother or is crippled in some way. When you are the non-PD partner, you try to reason, explain, work with, accommodate and none of it helps because their reality is not your reality. It is like living in bizarro world. Even the adultery was justified because it was just something he needed, he couldn’t help himself and I had to go along with it until he had worked it out. Until I understood about PD (just this past year), I had no idea why reasoning, explaining, etc. didn’t work. I questioned my own sanity time and again because nothing made sense. What is most sad is that he has a lot of good qualities and yet, even after years of counseling, nothing has changed.
Err…sorry, my original comment wasn’t clear.
I guess what I meant to say was, how do we know if someone isn’t using religion as means to justify emotional abuse [or any other evil]? Unfortunately, it appears to be a very common situation.
I mean, the legalists I encounter who use scripture to justify everything [their own promiscuity, shaming my illness, etc.] – I’m sure they wouldn’t hesitate to use scripture to justify a divorce.
Lately I’ve wondered if PD-type people are drawn to religion. “…because God said so!” is a pretty strong rationalization. [Although cherry picking the Bible to suit your own selfish agenda is not what God intended...]
I confess to a lack of clarity regarding definitions – is PD a choice, or a bad habit, or is it in fact a disorder (diagnosable, treatable)? I guess I can’t justify leaving a PD spouse any more than leaving the current darling of conversation, the hypothetical habitual/emotionally dependent porn user. Both are potentially betraying the marriage, but are those grounds for Christian divorce?
Personality is an amalgam of temperament, habits — it is what one would call character. If you have difficulties here it will show in your relationships, in how you cope under stress, and it will increase your risk of doing bad things, bad things happening to you, and you harming yourself.
Terms used include “borderline’ “narcissistic” “histrionic”… the descriptions have increased, particularly in the DSM.
I do not see it as a ground for divorce, but the acting out (having an affair, putting children at risk, abandoning the spouse) are: and attempts to change these behaviours generally fail.
As BF said, there are many pds — particularly asocial (or psychopaths) and narcissists in the church. They love power, praise and pageantry. We need counsel from our godly friends to avoid them, for they lie by default.
“I guess I can’t justify leaving a PD spouse any more than leaving the current darling of conversation, the hypothetical habitual/emotionally dependent porn user. ”
I don’t think it is a choice, but I’m no expert. In my ex-h’s case, he came out of a very difficult background which caused many of his issues. Most of it I did not know before we were married.
I couldn’t justify it either, CC, which is why I lived with it for so many years until it became repeated, unrepentant adultery. No one was able to get through to him at that point.
So, are most cases like Magistra’s, where the person is perhaps masking their weaknesses, and slowly unravel? I understand questionable character, but why does it have a special name (not being sarcastic, just trying to understand the difference between a PD and a regular old garden variety jerk/witch)?
The number of broken lives left in their wake. Seriously.
The number of broken lives left in their wake. Seriously.
Well when you put it that way – makes sense. But what can you do? If someone is that disordered (and I’m guessing these aren’t the types of folks who politely show up for counseling and spiritual direction and take all medication as instructed) then aren’t they ill? Or are they walking a line between illness and spiritual depravity? I don’t want anyone living lives of physical peril, but there is a lot of room for error and personal preference (for lack of a better term) it would seem. I guess “sickness and health” comes to mind – yes, the acting out results in behaviors that violate the covenant, but I’m just not all the way in with leaving someone who is sick, simply because they are sick. CL, I think, mentioned lack of competence, which seems legitimate, but who makes that determination, 10 years later, and in light of the fact that MOST (exceptionally exceptional present company excluded) people who marry crazy KNEW they were marrying crazy, they just ignored the signs or thought they could “fix” it? It just seems like PD is going to be the new meme for “evil”, so we don’t have to say it out loud – if someone is sick, they’re sick, be it physically or mentally, and if someone is evil, they’re evil. Are we just not wanting to address it for what it is?
(Magistra, I hope it is apparent that I am rambling about hypotheticals here, and am in no way questioning your personal situation. – I would imagine these are all questions you have entirely too much experience considering.).
That Rambo there is a spam-bot, Chris, not a person.
“Magistra, I hope it is apparent that I am rambling about hypotheticals here, and am in no way questioning your personal situation. – I would imagine these are all questions you have entirely too much experience considering.”
I know, CC. I’m not taking it personally and you are asking good questions. I don’t think there are definitive answers but each situation must be brought before godly elders (or priests, in your case) to be pondered, prayed through, and considered. It was not easy, it is still painful in many ways, and I have to lean hard on the Lord daily to deal with the aftermath and entrust my children in His care.
CL, I think, mentioned lack of competence, which seems legitimate, but who makes that determination, 10 years later, and in light of the fact that MOST (exceptionally exceptional present company excluded) people who marry crazy KNEW they were marrying crazy, they just ignored the signs or thought they could “fix” it?
But MOST people don’t know that they are marrying a PD person. PD people tend to be good at masking and even mimicking. Not that this is anywhere near the same, but I have been told by psychologists that people who are married to spouses with Asperger’s never realized that their spouse as Aspy for the very same reasons. In the courtship, people with Aspy’s are good at mimicking the typical courtship script and even presenting a persona that they know to be socially acceptable.
Compare this to PDs– people with PD know how to mask and distort reality, causing the people that they are in relationships to doubt what they know to be real. This is going to sound terrible, but I honestly think my mother has BPD. I can see it in the way my parents interact and my dad does everything he can to get away from her when he’s able to. They hardly have a real relationship because my mother has spent so much time using her emotions to control everyone around her.
This makes me concerned for my brother, because he grew up with a mother who was extremely emotional and manipulative and I don’t want to see him getting married to a woman like that. Over my dead body will he get married to a woman like that.
People who grow up with PD parents often believe that is how NORMAL people really are like. Yes, you might realize that their behavior is crazy after all, but you need a third party involved in order to have true discernment. If you are used to dealing with parents (who are supposed to be the role models for what men and women are like) that use emotional abuse, gas-lighting, and other crazy behavior on a regular basis, you are going to believe that is what life is like. So anything that is just one notch away could be considered “better” but in reality, one notch away is still PD behavior. You need to be at least 5 notches away or even on the other end to know what normal behavior is like.
By the time people realize this, it’s often too late. More people need to be educated on how to recognize disordered individuals, and I daresay, the population is rising.