I am going to thank Will up front for pointing me to this, for I want to discuss logic and lack thereof: perhaps why I no longer am Charismatic or Pentecosstal in theology, and women in the church.
The article he linked to is about black women pastors. And the black church in the USA has some problems. The first is that is should not exist. We are all one in Christ and we should all be together. The melanin deficient who glow in the dark, like me, can do with some passion: and we know the holiness and pentecostal churches need some theological rigour. The second is that the family has imploded within these communities, one of the things the church should stop.
Contributing to the growing numbers of women becoming pastors are real estate and denominations. Churches formed in nontraditional spaces, like storefronts, offer aspiring pastors more opportunities to preach. And in Holiness and Pentecostal churches, ordination and authority often come directly from the Spirit, said the Rev. Dr. Dale T. Irvin, president of the New York Theological Seminary.
Storefronts of Bedford-Stuyvesant and Bushwick have given rise to many Christian congregations. Over the years, these nontraditional church spaces have been a launch pad for female pastors.
“If the Spirit ordained a woman and she was called to preach, she had to be a pastor,” he said.
Naomi Frazier, a pastor and a member of Mother/Daughters of Zion, rents time at Mt. Paran for a Sunday service. “I went to churches where men literally walked out as I was about to enter the pulpit,” she said. “But nevertheless, I’m going to keep going like the Eveready battery.”
Now, the issue of “the spirit says” has to be confronted. For God is consistent and God does not contradict himself. So either these Black Pastors are correct… or Paul is. For Paul told Timothy and Titus to appoint men as elders, (Presbyters) to rule the church. Married but once, able to control their wives and children, of good repute. I do not qualify by those rules, and I’m a bloke. So if I feel ‘the spirit calling me’ to elder-ship, I am not being led by the spirit of God, but a spirit of falsehood. We have to test everything, for we can sound, like the woman at the well did, quite spiritual, when our lives are a total mess.
16Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come back.” 17The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!” 19The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us.” 26Jesus said to her, “I am he, the one who is speaking to you.”
It is worth considering that Jesus did not deviate from his message. The woman he was talking to was a Samaritan, and they worshiped the God that they had been taught to (by priests ordered to do so during the Babylonian captivity) in the hills: something the Law and the Prophets said should not happen.
Jesus is confrontational. Firstly, he asks where her husband is: he is reinforcing the rules of society and (although he had women disciples) he was not going to give the appearance of impropriety, as he knew this was a woman who would have worn Hawthorne;s scarlet letter if these people could afford the extra fabric.
Secondly, he reminds this Samaritan that they are the ones in error: salvation comes from the Jews,
And thirdly he says who he is: and this woman told her neighbours, and the village joined the kingdom. But Jesus did not contradict the law, and this is why this is wrong.
It’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately—the role of the Holy Spirit in the gender debate. Have we forgotten this member of the Trinity? Perhaps if we were really, truly in tune with the Holy Spirit, letting the Spirit guide our lives and our ministry, we would not argue about whether a woman should be pastor or elder or deacon. If we were on our knees, listening for the Holy Spirit’s call, maybe it would be no question whether a woman could preach and teach the gospel.
I’m not a very charismatic Christian. I don’t speak in tongues or (often) wave my arms while I sing. I don’t have the gift of prophesy or healing, and I’ve never witnessed a miracle. But I am drawn to people who do, and I know that the Holy Spirit is present in a very physical way in the lives of many believers. I think most of us are missing out on the sweetness of God when we limit our openness to the Holy Spirit.
In the Bible, when the Holy Spirit is mentioned, it is often in connection with breaking down barriers and empowering unexpected people to share in the joy of the kingdom. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom!
Um, no. Been there: my father (who I deeply respect, and is far wiser than I was) was involved in the Charismatic revival during my teenage years. I have worshiped with them. I have heard prophecies — both true and false. I have been known to glossolate. And I really miss, within the Reformed, the worship that occurs in those churches: as much as I miss the beauty of evensong among the Anglicans.
But… I have heard people say “god is telling me” or “the spirit is telling me” all too often as they start sleeping with their GF or BF, or aim to preach or lead which they ought not. We forget that Paul was writing to churches who prophesied, and spoke in tounges, and healed, and he did all these things. Yet he preached decency, order, structure. For we should use our zealousness and joy in the Lord to keep the law, not disavow it.
Charismaniacs are nuts, and indeed, rationalize anything away if they can declare that they’re ‘Spirit-led’ to do something; much, much antinomianism in that community.
Calvary Chapels describe themselves sometimes as “charismatic with a seatbelt” – that seatbelt being checking EVERYTHING by the Word of God.
@Will: not all Charismatics are nuts: some, like Hearthie point out, have seat belts.
@Hearthie: unfortuanelty, not all charismatics have seat belts.
I love my church so much… no I don’t think it’s perfect, but it’s an awesome place. The reason that CC are still around (en masse, here in the states) is that a few of the Jesus Freaks decided to get serious about their Bibles. I could do with more nerds, but instead we get a ton of incredible hearts.
I suppose. But like you and she say, not all have that feature.