I posted this at Traditional Catholicism. Now, to add fuel to the fire, I am going to disclose.
- I work with, and like, many people who are gay. I consider that hatred of a person because they are gay is immoral.
- My father works with Exodus ministries, and has done so ever since Homosexuality was made legal in New Zealand.
- I do not believe we should have sodomy laws, for the same reason I think we should not have blasphemy laws: New Zealand is not a theocracy.
- As New Zealand is not a theocracy, and (Political Correct) tolerance functions as a religion, a fairly high level of distress has to be accepted by any group.
So… I am against Homosexuals in the public teaching ministry of the church. I also beleive that women, divorced men, and those who are in other ways living lives of immorality should not be in leadership positions within the church. My post was in the context of the Presbyterian Church USA voting to allow gay (men and women) into the ministry…. as Vox Day says, in the process committing theological suicide
In the Presbyterian church most members take a fairly biblical and conservative (for Calvinists) stance on leadership, starting with “Elders should be without reproach, the husband of one wife” (I Timothy 3:2). We also believe that we should be open to people regardless of their state and what they do. We should invite all people to repentance.
We no longer shun those in open sin, and we don’t have elders guarding the table of communion so only those who are living in repentence can avail themselves of the bread and wine.
[In the classical Presbyterianism, communion was only for communicants, who had a card given to them by their elder -- who was NOT a family member -- after a discussion of their spiritual state. No card, not allowed forward. Each congregation was expected to appoint enough elders so that the elder would KNOW what was going on in that family. (The elders then send two representatives to the "Presbytery" -- generally the teaching elder and one other -- who vote regionally and then nationally on the governance of the church). Interestingly, this all began to change when I was about Daegus' age, during the high tide of liberalism].
So we have gay people in church. We have ministries — such as Exodus (which has lost its charity status in NZ for homophobia, I kid you not) to help them. Many of these men choose to live as faithful and courageous celibates. We have divorced people. We have people who are breaking the 7th commandment, as we have people who are breaking the 6th, 8th, 9th, and 10th.
But we should not allow them into leadership. I consider that I am disqualified for leadership. Leadership is a gift given to a few.
But… the liberals wanted it to be available to everyone. This started with women — and women elders made the visitation difficult for men, particularly if they needed to confess they were having crushes etc. Then women became preachers, and this drove men away.
Then… divorced people were allowed to serve. That (and unfaithfulness from the leadership, either sexually or financially) destroyed congregations. And then… homosexual acts were not seen as individual acts of sin but a lifestyle — and liberals said they could become ministers.
At this point many congregations said not “NO” but “HELL NO”. Particularly (in NZ) the Pacific Island and evangelical wings — which were the only bits growing in the church. But the Liberals kept on bringing in back to the presbytery. And it is continually reported in the paper.
The Liberals make two fundamental errors.
1. They think that the Presbyterian church is a democracy. It is not: it is a church — that I pray (as a member) is still being led by the holy spirit.
2. They think that ministry is about power, when it is about powerlessness and service.
I don’t think the Presbyterians will die. I think the liberal end will not breed, and this period of trial will end — as it is for the Catholics.
The church is there to bear witness even if it is offensive, illegal, and seen as scandalous. Names and labels do not matter. Faithfulness does