There has been an ongoing debate about what is Christianity, who are Christian, and who or which groups can call themselves this. In this debate, there is a risk of seeing the church that we have as perfect.
It is not. Even the people who take the concept of infallibility the furthest — the Catholics — are aware that not all the teaching from the church is correct, Just because it comes from a churchly institution does not mean that is correct.
24He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. 30Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
In the church of God there are people who are not of God. There are weeds. THere are false teachers. There are people who aim to gain power, not serve and do good. That is the nature of the church. The parable teaches us that these people will not be weeded out, that they will cause scandals, and that in this time we have to tolerate this.
The church is not perfect. Any attempt to see it as perfect is moving into a cultic situation: the besetting sin of protestants and Anabaptists. The church is flawed because us humans are flawed.
Despite this, we are called to do good an honour God as a church. Because we will be rewarded for the fruit we produce — or our status as hindrances and heretics will be laid bare, and we will get our wish.
The punishment for this hindrance and evil is simple, moving beyond the imagery of fire at harvest. God will leave us, and that is the second death.
Done, but you stay in the misandry list.
yeah, it is like TC, which is also collective — And I call that Alte’s place… even though Terri and Morticia are co editrixes.
Two alternatives: i either keep on calling it Will’s place or Svar’s place 9depending on who is running the post — which is what I do and also what Ferd does in his links of the day, or I will turn your name into a TLA. I don’t like that as the closest one is two letters and refers to an undignified part of a surgical assessment.
I know it is not you: but you need to check your pingbacks… that is how it got in. I assume you use akismet, which basically sorted out the problem for me.
BTW, it’s not Will S.’ site, it’s a collective effort, and is known as Patriactionary. You may want to correct your blogroll – that is, if you still wish to link to us, your call.
Sorry to hear you’re getting spam, Chris, but I assure you, we have nothing to do with that.
Remember when they ticked off Brendan and Dettennui, and they both quit?
Remember how they ticked off Kathy, and she quit?
And you know that Svar was kicked off, as were CL and 7Man, for no reason other than their laughing at my jokes at Eumaios (who was also kicked off).
Cluck cluck cluck, go the hens! And their white-knight defenders…
Just deleted 19 spam links from lawyers, notaries public, bail bondsmen and other nefarious people. I’m getting irritated by this… and I think I have more patience than either Ferd or TC
The gals are just upset because Morticia is being blocked / banned, and I see many men white-knighting for them… Sorry to see that sight, including some I might not have expected to… Oh well, whatever.
Funny, I made a bad joke, someone else laughed at it, and she and her bf got banned, but not me… Isn’t that something? Not that any of us care. Just shows you what kind of people you’re dealing with there…
BF and Chels can say some good things
Why did you compare me to Chels? I’m not a feminist, & I never trolled. I was banned from TC because I defended my boyfriend’s Anglican faith, and for saying that I will not emotionally blackmail him into converting to Catholicism [that was the advice they gave me – fyi that is quite possibly the worst piece of relationship advice I have ever been given] How does that qualify as trolling? [& If you ask me, I think saying Anglicans are heretics destined for Hell qualifies as trolling]
Mainly because Chels is the most recent person who has been irritating people. BTW, Svar has now been banned from TC, so Alte does wield the banhammer both ways.
Chels is more subtle, and at times I agree with her… if you go lurk you will find that she is aware there are cookies after you swallow the red pill.
And lunk (don’t comment, unless you like pain) at Svar and Will S’s new place, where there are some interesting talks about the red pill, Is being a pain a good and godly tactic etc. Dalrock and Keoni have made good comments there
…you know why Svar and Will S. give me a hard time? ’cause Alte and the others condone such behavior! Alte and the others viciously cyberbullied me. & after they banned me, they said all these awful things about me; painting me as this horrible sinner destined for hell… [because apparently that's where Anglicans end up - hell]
I don’t even read that blog anymore; I haven’t clicked on a link to there in over a month. Reading that blog would be like taking financial advice from a bankrupt individual. I mean, if they cannot behave like Christians – then what do they know about Christianity? & I doubt they even have the humility to apologize and admit they were wrong about me. Like all the devout-legalistic Christians I encounter in real life, I’m sure they only practice the faith to fuel self-righteous ego trips. They have yet to prove me otherwise.
Over the last few months, BF has changed. Which I hope is good and related to her relaxing into her faith.
These past few months I’ve been trying my best to be emotionally strong, and not let other people’s judgments come between my faith in God. I’m trying to be more honest with myself – I will no longer pretend or force myself to believe in church doctrines. There’s nothing wrong with rejecting transubstantiation, or magisterium infallibility.
The Anglicans are being a good influence on you.
& my health’s been getting better [...slowly], so I’m not in such a medication induced haze…
Svar is ill as well, and I note that as he has got worse physically he has got much worse online. I hope he gets better
The Catholics, since Vatican I, teach papal infallibility… but the Pope only has this when he speaks as Pope.
It’s not just the Pope. The Magisterium states that the Holy Spirit renders the Catholic Church infallible [an aspect of the Holy Spirit prevents Catholicism from becoming corrupt; like a divine firewall]. Denying the infallibility of the Church means you’re denying an aspect of the Holy Spirit.
As an individual? There are lines I won’t let people cross. These relate to protecting my integrity.
I’m seeing this with Will S — who is refusing to talk to a certain class of woman because their illogic offends him. It does not allow him to grow.
I’m no Biblical scholar […I'm too sick to continue schooling for said career path] but I’m pretty sure Jesus wasn’t like that. He was kind and respectful to everyone; especially the people the religious community labeled as “sinners”.
Christians should be kind, caring individuals setting an example to hopefully draw people into the faith [or at least that's how I felt back when I was devout...] Christians shouldn’t be judgmental and treat those they disapprove of with blatant cruelty; shame and shun them from society. I hate how so many Christians act like they have sinners all figured out and refuse to even listen to them. Christians should try to empathize with them, put themselves in their shoes. That’s what Jesus did. Unfortunately I don’t know many Christians that have the humility to kindly converse with a modern-day equivalent of the Samaritan woman at the well. Let’s be honest – these days Christianity is all about throwing stones. “Look at those sinners. Let’s point out all the reasons why they’re going to burn in hell…” Jesus might as well said “men will know that you are my disciples, since you will hate everyone that doesn’t perfectly follow Christianity”.
& it isn’t healthy to view the world in black and white; to make a list and sort everyone in your life as either “good” or “bad” “Christian” and “UnChristian”. When the Pharisees did that, Jesus condemned their dichotomy and tried to teach them that spirit of God can be found within the many shades of grey.
My father isn’t a Christian, yet he’s still a wonderful decent successful man. My parents have an Egalitarian marriage [my Mom's a housewife, but she doesn't act like a mindless Barbie doll – she helps my father with problems and voices her opinion – an opinion my father values] yet their marriage is happy and going strong.
I know many Christians who are unkind and cruel to my father without even giving him a chance. They call the Gods of his faith demons and place him on their “bad person” list. I feel ashamed to even mention my father’s faith to Christians, because whenever I do so I end up being harshly judged. I’m a bad Christian, because I don’t consider his polytheistic faith evil. His faith isn’t Christian, but it’s still full of Christ-like virtues; Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on morality. Non-Christians can be good people.
Why do I have to hide so many aspects of my life [my illness, my father's faith, my doubts] just to have Christians treat me with dignity? I like my boyfriend’s progressive church because I finally feel like I don’t have to hide and feel ashamed of those aspects.
On the other hand, I’ve seen the same illogic (Alte on a bad day, you can find the link) lead to a discussion that helped many. In both cases, the person is trying to do good.
On a bad day she told me I’m possessed by a demon and will burn in hell…all because I consider Anglicism a legitimate form of Christianity.
You should realize that type of behavior among Christians is the norm . [Especially here in America, where a significant percentage of our population thinks homosexuals were born without souls and dinosaur fossils were buried in the ground by Satan] Christianity is often used as a tool to harm others, than for anything benevolent. [hence, why Christianity has completely lost its credibility among my generation]. So many Christians see nothing wrong with using their faith as an excuse to harm others. I feel more comfortable talking to non-Christians/seasonal Christians than actual Christians because at least I know they don’t wave the Bible/Catechism knowledge around like a sword.
I’m sick of having to justify all the evil things that have been told to me in church, or all the cruel things told to me by Christians. I’m not very good at mental gymnastics; practicing a faith shouldn’t be so difficult.
If I can quote, we are supposed to be innocent, but wise. And wisdom means we speak circumspectly and with marked discretion around those who are evil. Inside the church or outside the church
Evil is a strong word; we shouldn’t casually label people as evil. It’s dehumanizing. People are misguided, and motivated by selfish desires – but malevolent for the sake of being malevolent? That’s rarely the case.
The “7 Deadly Sins” is a great concept because it explains how good people are blinded by their own selfishness and inadvertently commit evil. Greed leads to dishonest business dealings; Lust leads to promiscuity; Pride leads to arrogance; and so on.
Or maybe I’m wrong. I’m one of those optimistic idiots who always tries to find the good in others. My optimism is why I’m trying to find some good in modern Christianity; even though it’s an extraordinarily difficult task.
I’m starting to think my issues with Christianity stem from disappointment because I’m naive enough to expect Christianity and Christians to be perfect.
I’m only talking to Chris here right now, not anyone else in this discussion thus far, who needn’t bother
Christians like Will S. are the reason why it’s so hard for me to believe. What did I ever do to him to justify being treated cruelly?
Will is setting up a site for the boys. His site, his rules. Will knows I have my rules, here…
@ Chris: A new blog, aimed mostly at men:
http://patriactionary.wordpress.com/
Come join in the fun.
(I’m only talking to Chris here right now, not anyone else in this discussion thus far, who needn’t bother.)
Indeed, I should hardly think that endless arguing allows anyone to grow. Hence, better to cut off contact with vexatious, contentious persons.
In general, I agree with you. However, I have two or three caveats (1) sometimes you can’t get away from them. The vexatious person is your boss on this rotation, for instance, or a classmate. (2) There needs to be a level where the banhammer is pushed. Moderation is a useful example here: I don’t moderate at Dark Brightness, you do at patriactionary (nice title, and yes I’ve linked to you), and (3) the trollish can change.
BF and Chels can say some good things. Over the last few months, BF has changed. Which I hope is good and related to her relaxing into her faith. Alte used to be a total pain in the neck, now she is an essential read. If you go to the beginning of this blog, you will find that I was to the right of Attila the Hun (still am) very angry (less so) and still coming out of a beta-ized marriage.
Part of doing blogs is dealing with the comments — without becoming feministing or the echo chamber freejinger is.
It is not. Even the people who take the concept of infallibility the furthest — the Catholics — are aware that not all the teaching from the church is correct, Just because it comes from a churchly institution does not mean that is correct.
Actually, I had been taught that questioning the Catholic Church’s infallibility was a sin. Because of this, I grew up afraid to even acknowledge my disagreements with official church doctrine [i.e. transubstantiation]. & when I naively attempted to discuss these issues with a Priest, he just implied I’m a sinner that is on the path to hell.
In the church of God there are people who are not of God. There are weeds. THere are false teachers. There are people who aim to gain power, not serve and do good. That is the nature of the church. The parable teaches us that these people will not be weeded out, that they will cause scandals, and that in this time we have to tolerate this.
But lately I feel like all I do is tolerate. I’m sick of getting hurt by false doctrines and alleged Christians. I think most of my issues with Christianity stem from disappointment. Accepting Christ into my life seemed to have caused more problems than good; it shouldn’t be that way.
…or am I just naive for expecting Christianity to be comforting? Or expecting Christians not to hurt me?
I think there are two parts to what you are saying, and to deal with this I’m going to have to do a little deconstruction of the magisterium.
The Catholics, since Vatican I, teach papal infallibility… but the Pope only has this when he speaks as Pope. Now, I’m a Calvinist. I doubt my conclusions, as did Calvin, opening up the reasoning behind my conclusions to the brothers because I am quite capable of error… and I want that corrected. for the reformed, there is no authority but Scripture. Because all humans have the ability to sin, mixed motivations, and make mistakes.
So the first bit is easy. The church — the collective of serious minded people who try to do the will of God — will continually argue and reason about what the response of this time will be, knowing we will get it wrong but trusting the spirit to make it right.
The second part is more difficult. there are evil people in the church. From the pews to the elders, from the elders to the consistory… there are people you lust for the title, who want the power and status, who do not serve.
In my experience, many of these people, in the church, are women.
Now, this needs confrontation and the use of discipline. Inside my church, and in all churches, I am but laos. I am not qualified for leadership. From my secular job, where at times I have had to lead… disciplining incorrect behaviour is difficult to get right.
As an individual? There are lines I won’t let people cross. These relate to protecting my integrity.
I’m seeing this with Will S — who is refusing to talk to a certain class of woman because their illogic offends him. It does not allow him to grow. On the other hand, I’ve seen the same illogic (Alte on a bad day, you can find the link) lead to a discussion that helped many. In both cases, the person is trying to do good.
You have to be able to detect people who fake good, fake holiness, and damn you. I generally find that these people look perfect, and make me feel like a lump of dirt with no business being in any relationship with God, with any one around them, or them.
If I can quote, we are supposed to be innocent, but wise. And wisdom means we speak circumspectly and with marked discretion around those who are evil. Inside the church or outside the church
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